On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:05:13 -0000, pearl wrote:
> wrote in message news:7i6303pio4h1bd2hdr2pd850s28fn3lvu5@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:11:39 -0000, pearl wrote:
>>
>> > wrote in message news:jg3rv21upgu3s1q4pv169h6mg2e6c0jhq2@4ax.com...
>> >> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:18:23 -0000, pearl wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > wrote in message
news:a3ngv2trkai2goovh1jeophs3no285ph2o@4ax.com...
>> >> >> On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:45:07 -0000, pearl
wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > wrote in message
news:jif9v2l38vprf2em374ddm7oadk422mdt2@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >> >> >> He did point out that *most* of the deaths are not obvious,
like
>> >> >> >> those which occur because of the draining. He then went on to
>> >> >> >> describe the ones you can see, with the frogs and lizards and
>> >> >> >> toads etc which DO survive the draining and *icides, etc. Didnt
>> >> >> >> he also include the deaths of those who survive all of it including
>> >> >> >> the harvest, and are then picked off by predators because they
>> >> >> >> have no shelter left? Im pretty sure he included them too.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Who did? Show us some real EVIDENCE for such deaths,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Plenty of them.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >EVIDENCE?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rice farmers have told us that there are.
>> >> >
>> >> >Show us. Start by proving that diderot is a rice farmer.
>> >>
>> >> I believe what he said about that, and have no reason not
>> >> to. Whether or not you believe it is based entirely on what you
>> >> WANT to believe, and nothing else. Your inability to think things
>> >> through allows you to believe whatever you want apparently,
>> >> by allowing you to stop thinking at any point where the facts are
>> >> not to your liking. Putting it all together like this really does clear
>> >> up a lot of questions Ive had about you people, and whether
>> >> or not you could possibly, honestly believe some of the things you
>> >> claim to. Thanks for that.
>> >
>> >Whether or not you believe it is based entirely on what you
>> >WANT to believe,
>>
>> Its based on things he wrote, and my own personal
>> experiences. In contrast to that, nothing he wrote and
>> none of your own personal experiences suggest that
>> he is or was not a rice farmer.
>
>It was thoroughly debunked by an authentic organic rice farmer.
No it wasnt. You were told what he knew you wanted to hear,
and what he probably very amusingly understood that you wanted
to believe. Lunberg is obviously in a position where he would NOT
want people like yourself to know how many animals are killed in
rice production. diderot was in a similar position, but he understands
the fact that people like yourself who *should* care about such
things, are pathetically the last people who ever will. I believe he
is the first person I saw point out the fact that only aras/vegans
deny cds, and that no one else does.
. . .
>> >> Try to at least understand this part: It *varies!!!* That means
>> >> that there *are* deaths, the numbers are significant,
>> >
>> >Ipse dixit.
>>
>> The numbers are not significant to YOU because you dont care,
>
>Nonsense.
How many are there then?
>> but they are significant to anyone who has even the slightest interest
>> in human influence on animals.
>
>You said the numbers are significant. Show us verifiable evidence.
I said they are significant to anyone who has even the slightest
interest in human influence on animals, which applies to diderot
and myself quite obviously, and equally obviously not to you. Try
to understand diderot already knew that it wouldnt matter to you
before he ever even encountered you as an individual. He knew
before he even started posting that veg*ns/aras do not care.
Looking back its amusing to note that Lindburg was afraid you
might care, and so decided to act as if there really are not thousands
of frogs even though he said that they rescued thousands of
duck eggs. He probably wasnt aware that if he told you there
are thousands of ducks and thousands of frogs TOO, that somehow
you would persuade yourself to think he was lying though that is
what you would have done.
>> >> >> >> >Harvesters move slowly, and they
>> >> >> >> >are not the high speed machines described in this article.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> They dont have to be high speed. They kill by crushing,
>> >> >> >> mutilation, suffocation, poisoning, and things like that, not
>> >> >> >> by rate of impact.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Wildlife moves out of the way, or have you some EVIDENCE?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Those that dont get out of the way.
>> >> >
>> >> >There may be a few. Regrettably.
>> >>
>> >> I used to bush hog a field where we kept our cows. The top of
>> >> the blade guard would become completely covered by all kinds of
>> >> grass hoppers etc. Its easy enough to believe as many or more
>> >> were killed as there were on the top of the machine. Its also
>> >> easy to believe that a lot of frogs and lizards, etc, are killed by
>> >> rice farming. In contrast to that, I find it impossible to believe that
>> >> a lot of them are not whenever the rice farmers: prefer life and
>> >> cycle-of-life over a sterile monoculture.
>> >
>> >Whether or not you believe it is based entirely on what you
>> >WANT to believe,
>>
>> Only because I WANT to believe the truth, even when I dont
>> happen to like what it is. I dont especially want to believe that
>> bush hogging kills thousands of insects, or that because of
>> similarities in different types of crop production rice farming kills
>> thousands of insects, amphibions, reptiles and mammals, and
>> no doubt a significant number of fish and birds as well. In
>> contrast to that, you deny the deaths of thousands of animals
>> of numerous different kinds simply because the deaths of
>> those poor animals conflict with what YOU WANT to believe.
>
>Show us verifiable evidence, and well believe it.
You will always only allow yourself to believe what you want
to believe.
>Until then..
>
>> . . .
>>
>> >> >> >> Why is it you have no problem with 3K duck eggs, but you have
>> >> >> >> problems with frogs in TX? Why is it you dont have problems with
>> >> >> >> frogs in some places in the world, but you have problems with frogs
>> >> >> >> in TX? Have you any idea at all???
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I have,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is absolutely no evidence of that, which is why you can
>> >> >> present absolutely no evidence of it.
>> >> >
>> >> >The evidence is in past threads.
>> >>
>> >> No its not
>> >
>> >Yes, it is.
>>
>> You have never explained why you believe there could be
>> thousands of ducks in rice fields in TX, but not thousands of
>> frogs. In fact we never discussed it before, and you never
>> even thought about the question before I asked you about it
>> in THIS thread.
>
>The alleged thousands of frogs was discussed at length.
Since the thousands you cant comprehend only make up
20% or less of the estimated population, it turns out that were
really talking about millions of animals living in those fields. So
by denying that there are even thousands, you are saying
that 80% of the animals diderot is referring to dont even
exist. How far are you going to take it? Are you going to say
there arent even hundreds? How many? Do you think that
there are at most only 20-30 frogs per acre? How many do
you think, and WHY?
>> >Stop lying, if you can.
>>
>> The fact that weve never discussed this question before
>> is solid proof that youre the one lying, not me.
>
>The question is thousands of frogs in Texas, not ducks.
Why do you think there could be thousands of ducks in Texas
(or wtf ever...), but not thousands of frogs??? Have you any
clue at all WHY you think what you think you think? If you have
even the sligthest clue please explain. I cant think of any *real*
reason for anyone to believe that way, and you have certainly
never been able to present one.
. . .
>> Everything I pointed out was true, and remains true today.
>> We did learn that that particular group of people was clueless
>> as to whether or not there were frogs in the rice fields growing
>> in their own state. Its also very true that people in another
>> state may well be far more aware of what goes on than the
>> Texans in those particular ngs.
>
>How can people be aware of something that doesnt exist?
How many frogs then? Are you now saying there are no frogs
in rice fields in Texas, and that if there were a few of them people
would have written back saying that there are not thousands but
only a few? If not, do you have any idea what you think you are
trying to say?
>Conversely, if what was alleged was true, not only would
>Texans generally be aware of it, but youd find extensive
>documentation about the killing of hundreds of thousands
>of frogs in organic rice farming;
Really? Where do you think we would see it?
>like we see for pecticides.
>
>> >LOL indeed!
>>
>> It is amusing that you would side with the ignorant fools who
>> flamed me for asking what should have been a simple question,
>> that at least some people in some of those ngs should have had
>> some clue about. And we did learn more about the ignorance of
>> Texans than we learned about anything else...other than maybe
>> your own ignorance regarding search results.
>
>What is amusing is your clinging to a long-debunked pile-o-crap.
Ive seen so many frogs getting smashed on the roads in areas
like that, that it still impresses me as a horrible thing. And that is
*because* frogs do exist in huge numbers in some parts of the
world, and I have no doubt that parts of Texas are among them
even though there are no frogs in Ireland.
>> >> >> >> >After harvest, we
>> >> >> >> >flood our fields to provide habitat for winter migratory birds and
>> >> >> >> >waterfowl. They eat the rice that is left in the fields and
contribute
>> >> >> >> >fertilizer for next spring. There are autumn days when the sky is
>> >> >> >> >blackened by canadian geese (and the sound is beautiful)! We see
ducks,
>> >> >> >> >geese, cranes, rails, pheasants, egrets, herons, swans, and even
bald
>> >> >> >> >eagles resting in our fields.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> And killing, killing, killing...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE ????????
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cranes, rails, egrets, herons and bald eagles kill in order to
survive.
>> >> >> It may confuse you trying to understand how that could result in
killing,
>> >> >> but most people should have no problem understanding it.
>> >> >
>> >> >And that has what to do with collateral deaths exactly?
>> >>
>> >> Several things.
>> >
>> >Name them.
>>
>> Those deaths ARE collateral deaths for one thing. For another, the
farmers
>> themselves directly encourage those deaths by encouraging the birds to live
>> in their fields. The farmers could REDUCE those deaths by making the area
>> unwelcome to birds who do such killing.
>
>They are not collateral deaths.
Yes they are, though youve shown that youll never understand how or why.
>Predators kill to eat, wherever.
>
>> >> >> >> >We are committed to sustainable and organic farming techniques.
We
>> >> >> >> >see our farming operation as a partnership with nature, and
would
>> >> >> >> >not continue if rice harvesting resulted in the death toll that
this hoax
>> >> >> >> >suggests.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >--> Kent Lundberg.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If it results in the lives, it also results in the deaths. Duh!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >SO SHOW US SOME REAL EVIDENCE .
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Everything that lives also dies, which results in death. Life
means
>> >> >> death, EVERY time. If you can learn to understand that, maybe you
>> >> >> could move on from there to more complicated ideas...or maybe not.
>> >> >
>> >> >No evidence at all. Thought so.
>> >>
>> >> ONLY if they prefer the sterile monoculture would there not
>> >> be significant killing since there would be nothing to kill, duh, so
>> >> they either:
>> >
>> >Where are they all coming from after all that supposed killing?
>>
>> Since they flood with creek and/or river water, of course some
>> of them will come in with the water.
>
>Show us some verifiable evidence.
>
>> But diderot also explained that by far the majority of them are
>> not killed.
>
>Show us some *verifiable evidence* of what you claim, david.
Are you now trying to suggest that the majority of them *are*
killed, or what, have you any idea? I have seen frogs killed by
the thousands or roads where there are huge populations of
them, so I know from my own experience that such places
exist. Ive seen from bush hogging fields that animals like
grass hoppers are killed by the thousands when the fields
are mowed, and understand how it would be similar in rice
fields with a lot of frogs as well. Just because you cant
comprehend all that doesnt mean its not going on, nor
does it remove the experiences Ive had that taught me to
understand that it does. In some places frogs are as thick
as insects, but then maybe you have never seen a field
that was thickly populated by frogs or insects, and you
cant conceive of it happening either. As you read these
words and are mentally disabled by the concept of huge
populations of amphibions and reptiles, try to keep in
mind that the thousands of animals you deny exist only
make up the 20% of the population killed by farming, so
the other 80% which you must even more desperately
deny make up the MUCH larger number of those who
survive.
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Posted: 2007-03-22 13:35:16
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